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"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years … We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction." --Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

liberalism

Liberalnutjobs Forum // General Liberalism

Freedom
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:43 pm Post subject: liberalism

I put it in here cause i dont know where to put it.

Correct me im wrong please.

.: Liberalism

Liberalism is a political tradition that holds liberty as its primary political value. Of course, all terms in the US have been changed, American Liberalism (or new liberalism) is different from Classical liberalism formed in the Western Age of Enlightenment.

But overall, Liberalism seeks to create a society where freedom of thought and speech for individuals. A market economy with free private enterprise. Limits on Government power with interests in protecting the rights of individuals. A government system that is transparent.

New liberalism also emphasizes a degree of government provided welfare to ensure access to medical care for everyone and benefits for the unemployed. Housing for the homeless and so on.

bush08
Site Admin

Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 62

Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:22 pm Post subject:

I'll move it to a proper forum.

But I think you're missing the whole point. Liberalism YES means individual liberties and minimizing government for individual freedoms.

As far as medical care for everyone and feeding the homeless and whatnot you're talking about increasing government.

It sounds good, but it's not free. So you are talking about government expansion to TAKE money from some to give to others.

This is called redistributiong wealth, and is against fundamentals of true liberalism.

Communism gave everyone free healthcare and cradle to grave entitlements and this is the democrats goal today. All well intentioned it killed over 100 MILLION people according to UN estimates.

The path to hell is paved with good intentions...It sounds good to feed the homeless and give to the poor , but the democrats don't GIVE. They TAKE from the working man and give it to the non-worker.

Freedom
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:04 am Post subject:

I understand that , and i myself do not particularly support the welfare part of liberalism. Not because it take from the working man and gives to those who dont work but because it promotes unemployment. Why go to work when you can get free money just by sitting at home.

I have not been on welfare or benefits but could someone tell me how much you generally get?

But also, i just dont quite understand why there are these sides. These rivals. Can't we negotitate some form of government or political method which includes the better halves of each policy.

Or is Utopia condemned to storybooks?

bush08
Site Admin

Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 62

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:39 am Post subject:

Freedom wrote:

Or is Utopia condemned to storybooks?

I think that's it. I believe that the government should basically help provide a level playing field with minimal intervention.

Minimal intervention being the FDA, Border Patrol, justice system...etc.

The whole entitlement of retirement, health care, education, is ridiculous and all three of them are dismal and corrupt programs. It would seem whenever government oversteps its streamlined minimalist role and starts taking from Peter to pay Paul we all get screwed.

And to be honest at the end of the day Paul ( the receiver ) is screwed over in the long run more than Peter. It creates dependence and de emphasizes self worth.

All the great things in the past century that makes America and indeed the world great from screenplays to amazing inventions and medical advancements comes from American ingenuity and the freedom of minimalist government to carry it out.

As far as a Utopia, by the America being designed to get out of peoples personal lives and allow more freedoms than anywhere else on Earth it's as close to a utopia as is really feasible as a long term goal.

AcDiaz

Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 1

Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:16 pm Post subject: Not entirely accurate

I just came across this post and I think there's some gross inaccuracies that have to be cleared up immediately.

Bush08...Communism DID give free healthcare to everyone, you're right about that. But the mission of Communism was to make the poor and huddled masses LOVE the Communists because then they could stay in power forever. THAT was THEIR goal with that. They had ulterior motives that didn't benefit the people.

That is NOT what Democrats are trying to do.

Democrats in America today are trying to follow the lead of other countries who are making such systems work to the benefit of the people.

Japan, for instance, offers free and reduced healthcare to ALL of its citizens. There's nothing wrong with that and it WORKS in Japan.

All the Democrats are saying is that Health care is expensive.

It's A LOT cheaper to insure as many people as we possibly can, especially children, than it is to cover the costs of disabilities, debts and deaths that occur because people can't afford health care.

Where I live, we have a program called CHIP. Maybe you have heard of it where you live. It helps families without insurance get it for their kids at a highly reduced cost so we don't have any uninsured children in our state.

The state of Washington offers free dental checkups for kids in their school system. And I think that's fantastic!

Take a look at your paycheck next time and figure out how much money you're paying to the government to cover costs for medicare, medicaid, social security, etc.

We already cover benefits for the unemployed...why not give people a reason TO BE employed.

When I think about this issue I think about people like me...I'm on my parents insurance until I turn 23...after that I have to pray that I can afford the premiums to have health insurance...and vision insurance...and dental insurance...and prescription benefits...MY LORD!!! NO WONDER PEOPLE CAN'T AFFORD HEALTH INSURANCE!!!

Maybe you get insurance through your work and they pay your premiums.

We're NOT all THAT lucky.

Some of us have great jobs...at companies that only have three employees and can't afford to pay the premiums on benefits.

It's hard to take a look at what happens to other people and truly see what's happening.

I'll bet if we took a vote, more people like you would show up the poll and people like me would get screwed.

Honestly, I believe in the idea of giving people free healthcare.

It's a way to give people MORE freedom.

Freedom from debt. Freedom from having to worry all the time about whether or not they can afford birth control so they don't get pregnant.

You're suggesting that we continue to leave our poor and huddled masses poor and huddled and continuously ill and dying.

I'll admit that I don't like everything that I have to pay out on my taxes because I don't benefit from any of it.

I'll bet you'd be a little upset if people like me got together and said we want to take away ALL social security benefits because we're never going to benefit from it so why should the older generations get money from us???

I met this guy, Steve Glickman, who developed Vote Sizing and he thinks that the people who will be most affected by a decision should be the ones whose votes count the most.

So if free insurance isn't going to change your life, you shouldn't get as much of a say as the single father whose three children need health insurance.

I think that's a terrific idea.

Why should you get more say than the people whose lives will change as a result of this?

You talk about liberalism like it's going out of style.

Liberals are supposed to want people to be free.

Part of freedom is not always having to decide whether you pay for a prescription or this month's groceries...and so many people in America have to make that decision.

For a true liberal...a TRUE democrat...that single thought of someone choosing between groceries and insulin is enough to make you cry yourself to sleep.

Because you don't know what that's like. Because there's nothing you can do for that person right now. Because you don't know how many more people are out there every day making the same decision.

The government should intervene to help citizens, bush08...not to hurt them. Not to take their freedoms. To give them MORE freedom.

That's where guys like Steve Glickman with ideas like Vote Sizing come into the picture.

That's where ideas like free health insurance come into the picture.

And these ideas are perfect specimens of what LIBERALISM has always strived to achieve in America.

The right to TRUE freedom. The right to TRUE equality. The right to a LIFE WORTH LIVING.

I could never be a politician because I care too much about people and nobody wants to listen to someone who cares so much about people anymore.

I really hope that changes someday.

For now, I'm just a writer and middle class american since birth...who thinks that we all deserve to be healthy and worry free...at least when it comes to our health and the health of our children.

bush08
Site Admin

Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 62

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:40 am Post subject: Re: Not entirely accurate

AcDiaz wrote:

No read Karl Marx. This was the goal, the idiot masses that believed it would work because it sounded like a good idea and by UN estimates Communism actually wound up killing 100 million civilians.

Next time you goto a democratic convention or rally please take heed to the Che' shirts in the audience. Like the ACLU? was founded by communist party carrying ( literally ) activist whom the main founder wrote "Liberty Under the Soviets" about how great Stalin was.

AcDiaz wrote:

Democrats in America today are trying to follow the lead of other countries who are making such systems work to the benefit of the people.

Japan, for instance, offers free and reduced healthcare to ALL of its citizens. There's nothing wrong with that and it WORKS in Japan.

All the Democrats are saying is that Health care is expensive.

Maybe it works in Japan, Norway, and other countries.

However it's not great in Canada and the UK. It's not an end all solution and they don't have near the medical breakthroughs that we have in the free market United States.

All these cures, advances in proceedures, etc....coming out of Canada, Eh? Please... It comes from American free markets.

AcDiaz wrote:

It's A LOT cheaper to insure as many people as we possibly can, especially children, than it is to cover the costs of disabilities, debts and deaths that occur because people can't afford health care.

Yeah you're going to save money on health care by paying for health care, seems right up there with college grants will bring down tuition costs, because that really worked out. Hey maybe if we pay more money in taxes to congress they'll reduce spending! You're onto something. People CAN afford health care, I cut a check every 2 months. How do I afford it? It's called WORK.

AcDiaz wrote:

Where I live, we have a program called CHIP. Maybe you have heard of it where you live. It helps families without insurance get it for their kids at a highly reduced cost so we don't have any uninsured children in our state.

The state of Washington offers free dental checkups for kids in their school system. And I think that's fantastic!

Take a look at your paycheck next time and figure out how much money you're paying to the government to cover costs for medicare, medicaid, social security, etc.

Here you go, reduce the taxes and these outrageous programs and get off the backs of hard working Americans and then they'll have the money for healthcare.

AcDiaz wrote:

We already cover benefits for the unemployed...why not give people a reason TO BE employed.

By covering the unemployed you're just giving an incentive to be...unemployed. Sigh:roll:

AcDiaz wrote:

When I think about this issue I think about people like me...I'm on my parents insurance until I turn 23...after that I have to pray that I can afford the premiums to have health insurance...and vision insurance...and dental insurance...and prescription benefits...MY LORD!!! NO WONDER PEOPLE CAN'T AFFORD HEALTH INSURANCE!!!

Maybe you get insurance through your work and they pay your premiums.

We're NOT all THAT lucky.

Oh my god how horrific that you're going to have to get a job and pay for your own health care. Unbelievable. I work and pay for my insurance.

You want me to work and pay for my insurance and yours

AcDiaz wrote:

Some of us have great jobs...at companies that only have three employees and can't afford to pay the premiums on benefits.

It's hard to take a look at what happens to other people and truly see what's happening.

I'll bet if we took a vote, more people like you would show up the poll and people like me would get screwed.

Honestly, I believe in the idea of giving people free healthcare.

Yeah those awful people that work and pay the bills and take care of themselves would vote for people to be accountable for themselves. Evil vile people like me that don't feel they should pay for able bodied hippies without jobs.

AcDiaz wrote:

It's a way to give people MORE freedom.

Freedom from debt. Freedom from having to worry all the time about whether or not they can afford birth control so they don't get pregnant.

By getting them dependent on the federal government? Free birth control so you don't get unwanted pregnancies?! Gee could you think of any other possible way to avoid getting pregnant?!

They're all spontaniously getting pregnant are they? Because these evil mean Republicans won't give up there hard earned money to pay for girls that want to have sex but don't want to pay for birth control. WOW! How about personal accountability?

AcDiaz wrote:

You're suggesting that we continue to leave our poor and huddled masses poor and huddled and continuously ill and dying.

I'll admit that I don't like everything that I have to pay out on my taxes because I don't benefit from any of it.

I'll bet you'd be a little upset if people like me got together and said we want to take away ALL social security benefits because we're never going to benefit from it so why should the older generations get money from us???

Poor and huddled masses? Please if you are able bodied in America and work, yes WORK you can support yourself and yes even afford health care.

If you're OK with paying into the quasi-communist mantra then donate your money. But you don't want that you want laws to take it out of other peoples paychecks redistributing wealth to as you see fit.

Yes take away social security. People should plan for retirement, and be encouraged to do so. Families should take care of their elderly.

AcDiaz wrote:

I met this guy, Steve Glickman, who developed Vote Sizing and he thinks that the people who will be most affected by a decision should be the ones whose votes count the most.

So if free insurance isn't going to change your life, you shouldn't get as much of a say as the single father whose three children need health insurance.

I think that's a terrific idea.

Horrible idea, and it's a horrible idea to be a single father. That father should be encouraged to not be single and think of his children while providing for him. You want the government to make it easy for bad decisions and make it easier to be a single father or mother presumably.

Easier and OK to have teenage sex because the government will be there for ya. Yippie!

AcDiaz wrote:

Why should you get more say than the people whose lives will change as a result of this?

Because I'm footing the bill! Why? Wow amazing. I work 60 hours a week, why should I have more because I worked harder?! I take responsibility for myself and work hard and pay taxes/insurance. I'm just a rat bastard.

AcDiaz wrote:

You talk about liberalism like it's going out of style.

Liberals are supposed to want people to be free.

Supposed to but they're now massively trying to get into peoples lives with huge government expansion.

AcDiaz wrote:

Part of freedom is not always having to decide whether you pay for a prescription or this month's groceries...and so many people in America have to make that decision.

Cry me a river...I worked minimum wage ( yup evil me ) living on my own when it was $4.25 an hour. I had to choose between eating on a couple of occasions. Guess you never had to do this, but in the end I worked harder and smarter and got a better job. Others I knew were on GR ( welfare ) and lived more comfortable than me and didn't work.

The point is by government getting involved to ABLE BODIED people to make their lives 'easier' it oppresses those people and makes it easier to not lift themselves up and easier to make poor choices.

AcDiaz wrote:

For a true liberal...a TRUE democrat...that single thought of someone choosing between groceries and insulin is enough to make you cry yourself to sleep.

Because you don't know what that's like. Because there's nothing you can do for that person right now. Because you don't know how many more people are out there every day making the same decision.

I do know poverty and unlike you liberals I don't cry about the people as I goto sleep at night I DO something about it. People should be allowed to help themselves.

AcDiaz wrote:

The government should intervene to help citizens, bush08...not to hurt them. Not to take their freedoms. To give them MORE freedom.

More government equates to more freedom? Wow.

War is Peace

AcDiaz wrote:

That's where guys like Steve Glickman with ideas like Vote Sizing come into the picture.

That's where ideas like free health insurance come into the picture.

And these ideas are perfect specimens of what LIBERALISM has always strived to achieve in America.

The right to TRUE freedom. The right to TRUE equality. The right to a LIFE WORTH LIVING.

I could never be a politician because I care too much about people and nobody wants to listen to someone who cares so much about people anymore.

I really hope that changes someday.

For now, I'm just a writer and middle class american since birth...who thinks that we all deserve to be healthy and worry free...at least when it comes to our health and the health of our children.

Yes we all deserve the opportunity to help ourselves and help those who CAN'T help themselves. You're idea of CAN'T is apparently everyone without healthcare which isn't true. Or children WITH able bodied parent(s).

Sure it's the feel good police liberals that want to feel good.

Health care for all, but you don't want to pay for it you want hard working Americans to pay. You going around with a donation plate? Don't think so.

Once you 'solve' health care then all Americans deserve free homes, then jobs right?

It's a slippery slope disturbing. Americans should be allowed to help themselves and to be encourage to 'do the right thing'.

Freedom
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:52 pm Post subject: Random unrelated quote

A random unrelated quote, that i didnt know where to put:

Quote:

If 'Con' is the opposite of 'pro', then congress is the opposite of progress

I felt this was quite funny.. maybe you might not . here it is anyway. deal with it

Scott in Houston
Guest

Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 5:23 am Post subject: WTF?

ACDiaz
Demonstrates the problem with the younger generations; entitlement. I apply my rural upbringing to the liberal philosophy. “You reap what you soe”; if you do not plant and harvest then you don’t eat veggies and grain. If you do not hunt or raise livestock you don’t eat meat. Now, I realize that in the city we don’t perform these functions; however, commodities require a capital investment. An income stream is required for said investment, but is not owed just because you are an American. Our founding fathers stated Americans are entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness; not money for this or that because it seems like a good idea or for the greater good. I have no desire to pay for the waste fraud and abuse that will be associated with our government running a social program (see Medicare, Social Security).

saltydoggie

Joined: 10 Aug 2009
Posts: 1
Location: ontario canada

Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:07 am Post subject:

AN OUTSIDERS VIEW POINT
I am a Canadian who happened onto Conservative blogs by mistake and was stunned by what I have read .
It seems these blog are only for ranting and raving and not for serious and thoughtful discussion of the issues. I do get the message that many of you feel that both as a group and as individuals that you have almost no say in political matters. This I agree with. But I think you are all dead wrong about the cause.
If your enemies are the atheists and statists and liberals why then when you sent George Bush to the white house and elected a Republican congress and senate did you not see things go your way.
Well from this outsiders point of view you have simply identified the wrong ENEMY.
American conservatism depends for it’s very existence on grass roots conservatives like yourselves never making the mental connection that is obvious and self evident everywhere else on the planet. Your interests are not alined with the RICH. The laissez faire capitalism and free markets you support whole heartly has simply led to Corporate America and the Super Rich it creates getting almost total control over your political system and your cultural system. So much so that they consistently convince you to act against your own self interests.
The statists you so decry – (those that believe that economic and and politcial power should be controlled by a central government leaving individuals with relatively little say) DO EXIST ALRIGHT AND THEY ARE IN CONTROL But they are not the socialists or liberals you rail at. They are the very people you support .
To be blunt your real enemy is the Super Rich be they Democrat or Republican.
And they have convinced you to abandon equality and economic security at the very historical moment when you need them the most. If you are still reading and have not yet grabbed a pie you would like to throw in my face carefully read the following.

The latest figures on income distribution in the United States shows that the top-heavy spread continues to grow. A mere 300,000 people have incomes equal to the total income of the bottom earning half of the entire population. That's 150 million people. Those 300,000 had incomes 440 times greater than the average income in the United States. The last time the income imbalance was so large was in the 1920s&30s. In the 40s to 60’s the gaps between wealth and income were lessened thanks to war, the income tax, pro-employee legislation and labor organizations that forced a mild redistribution of the profits. That's all gone.
Your constitution intended that there would be one vote for one person. But since money is political power in America the selection of politcal candidates is in the hands of Golden 300,000. They more or less decide who gets on the ballot: Under your present political arrangement the two major-party nominees represent little more than disagreeing factions within the Golden 300,000, and you get to help choose which one is elevated to the ultimate power in the White House.
Some choice, but that is what you are left with and will continue to be stuck with unless the income gap is chopped down, way down, so that the top people are hauling in only 150 times the average income of the rest of you. Outsiders like myself do not call that democracy and it is certainly not what your founding fathers intended. But you can be certain that any effort to chop it down will be met with huge opposition from the Golden few with millions spent on television adds .
I do not understand why Americans especially conservatives like yourselves asking themselves contiue to support candidates ,parties and policies be they republican or democrat that continue to enrich the Golden few at their expense.
The Canadian politician who brought Universal Health Care to Canada over the dead bodies of the Insurance industry and the rich asked Canadians that very same question. He put it this way,“WHY DO THE MICE KEEP VOTING FOR THE CATS”
Conservatives should stop buying into the Republican cries of shared values ie issues like abortion which they always support and do nothing about after they get elected. These are smoke screens. Americans had better start paying attention to the real issue- HE WHO HAS THE GOLD MAKES THE RULE. And the rules are that the rich have no intention of publicly funding education, health care, energy reform or any other program that will result in the redistribution of income that is so desperately needed if the United States is to remain a functioning democracy. Because issues are so complicated today it is easy for the Golden 300,000 to mount huge televison scare campaigns to make people believe they are on their side protecting their freedom of choice, fighting deficits and defeating that old boondoggle Socialism. They give you guys a WARM FEELING you are standing up against something while on they go on going passing all kinds of legislation that makes them to richer and richer while the rest of American gets poorer and poorer. But all Americans need do is to keep their eyes on the MONEY.
In the Health fight ahead while the republicans scream that a government program will cause you to lose your choices please ask yourself if that isn’t exactly what the private insurers having been doing for years. And when the blue dog democrats and the republicans ask who will pay for Health care reform scream in one loud voice the Golden 300,000 –it’s the least they can do.
The election of Obama defied these realities because the internet allowed him to raise huge amounts of money from millions of small donations from ordinary citizens. But make no mistake the members of the house both republicans and blue dog democrats know full well they will not get on the ballot for re-election if they defy the interests of the Golden 300,000.

spunkloaf
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:06 am Post subject: Yep, all BS.

I agree with the last post. There's a faction in this country which (all of a sudden) hates liberals because Glenn Beck tells them to.

"They're taking your religion and your guns and your parental rights away, and they want to raise your taxes and kill your babies and destroy the fabric of American families."

Talk about "cry me a river."

The real gyst behind this fake-ass movement is to scare the shit shit of people while making the right-wing look like they are on the people's side, using traditionalism and family values and religion to rally people--who otherwise have no clue about the political climate-- into politics.

It's all so shameless, and nobody ever apologizes for their lies or makes corrections to their misinterpretations.

There are still people who demand that Obama reveals proof of his citizenship. There are still people who believe that the government of the United States of America is going to off people who are too sick to take care of. There are still people who shamelessly listen to Sarah Palin despite her obvious hateful and empty antics. This is a woman who provides no alternative to the troubles democrats are trying to correct, other than to hate democrats and liberals--because hey, it's ALL THEIR FAULT.

Bullshit. People are so gullible. There's an old saying, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." Well, these people who are feeding on hatred are destroying our country from the inside out. And they think they're just being good patriots, yet nothing threatens their well-being and nobody is trying to take a fucking thing away from them.

ConantheBarbarian
Guest

Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 9:31 pm Post subject: Re: Yep, all BS.

spunkloaf wrote:

You're such a dumb choad. Get out of your mommies basement and get a real job. Liberjism!

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